The Logical VS The Faithful

Well said but the argument shows an obvious bias towards people of faith.

I don't look at it this way. Know one knows if there is a God or an afterlife. This is a fact. I have no idea but for some reason I was born with and independent brain and I will use it. I have never felt differently and I have never changed my beliefs. I almost died when I was a kid and when recovered, nothing had changed. I didn't run to a religion or belief system and I did not suspend my thoughts on many subjects.

If someone shows me proof that my argument is wrong then OK, but I honestly feel religion is a reaction to death and the fear of said death. I have no fear of dying, nor do I have a fear of actually living without some belief system that provides a mental salve for my doubts.

I live, I will die and that's it. I will find out what happens after death when it finally comes.

""One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.""

Howdy,
New flava in ya ear. I believe in God, but because I'm selfish I happen to think that my God is just that--mine. I'm also a fatalist. I believe that our destinies are set. People don't like to believe this because they think it eliminates choice, but that's not true. No man knows his fate for sure, which means that each step is, for us, a new one. I think this was covered in Minority Report somewhere. Anyway, I'm not on religion. Christianity did a lot to enslave and opress my black people. Other religions don't get off so easy either. I think extremists are undersexed. I do have faith in one thing: myself. God made me the way I am, like Cain or King or Lance Armstrong, and prescribed for me a purpose. I'm a writer, that's what I do. I strongly believe that if I didn't constantly question things and detach myself from repressive state apparatuses(i.e., religion, political affiliations, J. Lo fever), I wouldn't be able to learn as much as I have.
Don't get me wrong, though. Even though I'm learning to be less politically correct(talk about unhappiness), I respect religion. There are people who've benefited from religion and will continue to. The need to believe in something compels us all even when we call ourselves logical. I don't get down with religion, but I'm not an atheist--I see God in everything I do. I don't plan to marry or have children either. We've got enough wack people in the world marrying other wack people and producing even more wack people. No thanks. However, I recognize the family as the building block of modern civilization. Without it, there would be chaos.
I hope that this was a logical and a faithful answer. Even if you don't have "faith"(such an ambiguous word, I think), you still have to trust in certain things, like gravity or the concept of time, in order to move about in the world. The truly enlightened ones borrow from fact and faith. This is the building block of imagination.

"Live Well And Die Quietly"

Aldinsane - I agree with pretty much everything you said!

Arcadian - "I strongly believe that if I didn't constantly question things and detach myself from repressive state apparatuses(i.e., religion, political affiliations, J. Lo fever), I wouldn't be able to learn as much as I have."
I agee completely. We must always question to have beliefs closer and closer to the truth. I'm guessing you've questioned your belief in god, what made you continue to believe in him?

""faith"(such an ambiguous word, I think)"
The dictionary.com says :
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

and

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

God, I suppose, can take many forms. Some people refer to him strictly as fate, others as karma. Some people project him into nature, into tangible forms. And some, recognizing that we are made in the image of God, see themselves as being a god born of a supreme god. Just as there are many ways of expressing the devil, so are there many ways of expressing God. But I haven't answered your question, have I?
There is a force that unifies all space and time. It holds our universe together and draws us toward one another. It forces everything into a cycle, from birth to death and then to something beyond that, something quite peculiar. I think this was covered in Star Wars somewhere. Now, whether it's a titanic Caucasian geriatric w/ a white beard and robe or the ripple from a Big Bang spinning out of control, it's what you want it to be.
I'm individualistic, so I think in terms of the singular. That's why religion is such an affront to my nature. I think Lenin put it best on that subject. Anyway, point is, God and fate are the same to me, and if my fate is set then it must have been set by some entity that understands finiteness and purpose of action. Or maybe I'm being more faithful than logical--who cares? You'd be surprised how many moves you make daily based on intuition alone.

"Live Well And Die Quietly"

Aaah, that I can understand. I believe in something which could be called "God". And if quantum mechanics exist then it is proof of "something" making decisions on a microscopic level. However those decisions are essentially random, so my God does not "understand finiteness and purpose of action."

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

Crimson_Saint -

I'm sorry if my statements were ambiguous. I didn't mean to insunuate that I do believe in he, she or it...just that I don't know. I just believe if there is one that it is beyond our limited brains to really understand it.

Organized religion is man made and thus a man made tool. I just don't understand why people get so wrapped up in one religion. If any of them were right, it seems like they would all be on the same boat ideologically. The differences in philosophy just proves that everyone is grasping at straws on this subject. Those who choose to suspend all thought and rely on a particular religion for their answers short change themselves and essentially say that they don't want to take any chances on the afterlife.

That's why I said I will find out when I die. In fact, if there is a god then I hope it is beyond our comprehension because the version of a god that religions provide make me lose all hope. To think that a god is as petty, divisive and in some cases downright hateful as many religions are really saddens me.

Cheers!

""One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.""

Stealph wrote: "EVERYONE has faith when he/she is in the fox hole in a life and death situation, when death is knocking on life's door, praying to whatever God they started to believe in." Haven't heard from him in a while, so I don't if he is still here - But he is right in this statement. The logical becomes faithful real quick.

We were in the North Atlantic for 21 days in 24 foot swells, our superstructure was cracked and we're running out of fuel. That water was cold. We had a chaplain aboard. When he said prayer over the intercom, EVERYBODY got on their knees. We asked our aethiest friend why he was on his knees, he replied, "just incase."

I think a logical person can have faith without giving up logic. But I'm sure it is much more difficult. But things start to become logical real fast when the shit hits the fan

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

It may seem a bit strange but is not believe in your own logic at best a matter of faith? As much as we would like to believe that we are logical beings, logic is a learned function of mentality not so much an inhierant quality? I can be intelligent without a high degree of logical ability, just as one can be logical yet be aware of (sensitive to) their spiritual aspect. Contrary to logical belief.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Well that OK, it was rather a mute point to begin with but as I was reading through this section I had noted that it seemed the point and counter-point form was basically defined by logic vs faith, so I wanted to note that logic is based in faith (personal belief) rather than some non-subjective factor.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

cturtle: I think if we lived closer to nature, then what you say would be very true. Possibly this is becoming a problem because we don't. Nature is a mirror image of God. When we face nature everyday, we see God everyday. When we stop facing nature, we stop seeing God. We then must determine in our own minds to believe or not bellieve. And Decius is saything that this is more difficult to do for the logical minded person. However, if that logical minded person faced nature everyday, a belief in God would not be difficult at all (I think that is what you are trying to say).

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

if that logical minded person faced nature everyday, a belief in God would not be difficult at all. Well,I have to admit to liking your way of thinking but that isn't exactly what I meant.
In the Old Testament it speaks of the walls of jericho (?) Supposedly this army marches round the walls of this city, trumping their horns and stamping their feet for so many days and the walls fall down? ya right? Say what kind of fool do you take me for?
But if I give it as a rational Scientific theory:
That the sound waves produced by the army formed a hamonic frequency within the resonsant cavity formed by the walls which caused the blocks of stones composing the wall to shake apart. Just as high winds caused the galloping bridge to fall, it now becomes more acceptable to believe (faith) that it really happened. Of course this was just a matter of coincidence, after all people back then didn't know about such things and therefore wasn't something that they planned to happen.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Those walls must have been REAL fragile then!
Nah, more likely whoever wrote that was simply exaggerating or perhaps it was simply a metaphor for "they had a REAL big army, so even our walls didn't help!"

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

I harken to the voice of yamni, the spirit of the whirlwind
Yes their walls were strong fortress but no their army was not big, force of arms would have to be huge with long seige too boot. Not by man's ways of war did they fall but fall they did by obeying; doing as they were instructed to do.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Um.. Okedoke, sure

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

ok so the logical are depressed and the faithful are happy? no no, many "logical" people find great happiness in life as do many "faithful" people have great sadness. its more a matter of finding ones niche, if it happens to involve more faith than logic then of course the person will become more faithful. as would a persons niche involving more logic cause them to become more logical. saying things like "if you are simply faithful and allow it to overcome you then you will be happy" this may work for some but not all. similarly saying "if you simply seek truth you will find happiness" again this may work for some but not all. personally i have found that "intense" type of happiness through both logic and faith. i dont need faith but it seems to be ever present in my life, which is odd because i hate the church establishment, i think "god" is impossible and religeon definately seems to cause more harm than good to me.

"I am Akba-Atatdia"